I second what Stu says about checking out Boulder Boys show and also being a more recent track fan. Boulder Boys is largely modeled after/inspired by Coffee Club and inspired me to start listening to Coffee club a few months ago.
I'm curious if you feel that the switch to NIL deals in collegiate track/XC will squeeze out more Adam Peterman/Anna Gibson types towards trail running right out of college with more and more foreign athletes coming in to take NIL spots? It seems it is now much more lucrative to run collegiately instead of coming up through the ranks in whatever their home countries are? I haven't been a college track/xc fan long enough to tell if this is a new thing because of NIL but from my new fan perspective it seems like there are a lot more east africans competing in the NCAA champs than there used to be.
It goes without saying that me and many others would love to see you test your chops at an out of season trail race or even a VK like Broken Arrow (end of June which I think is during your season but one of the most competitive in the US) that would be low impact and not affect your steeple goals too much. I'm not sure if you know this, but a lot of Trail running GOATs come from collegiate steeplechase (max king and Jim walmsley come to mind but I'm sure there's more) so there seems to be some strange connection between the two skillsets.
Keep up the great writing (it's a joy to see you in the email inbox each week) and best of luck at Boston!
Thanks for the support! The East African recruiting to the NCAA has seen a big uptick recently due to agencies bridging the gap. My Santa Clara coach has told me stories of being contacted by these agencies where the coach will pay for access to lists of East African preps to recruit— categorized from “NCAA champs” to “conference scorers.” Pretty insane, but I’m not sure how much national NIL (talking about big Nike type brand NIL) is available. Endowments at schools definitely is a big factor in NIL when it comes to recruiting now. Regardless, monetizing talent is a big carrot to dangle in front of any recruit— but with roster limits, there will be more (let’s call it) 2nd or 3rd tier high school talent that will adapt and go to D2-D3 schools, or may just try their chops at triathlon, marathons, or trail racing, sports that it seems in the past have been a later in the career type of move. Could make these disciplines even more competitive as younger talent gains experience earlier in their careers. Lots to think about!
Commoditizing athletes-oh my what a business idea! I guess that makes sense with your point about NIL deals. Despite the East Africans being some of the best runners in college, it seems like the huge NIL deals and sponsorships are still going to the domestic stars who companies seem to think will be more marketable/relatable/likable/ etc. With lack of access to big NIL deals and sponsorships though, I wonder what East African runners' primary motivation is for coming over to the US that would be advantageous compared to training in their home countries (is it living in the US, the support D1 athletes get, the exposure and chance for contracts, etc).
Your point about the agencies brokering "on behalf" of their athletes makes me think a little bit about the founder of UTMB's (Catherine Poletti) justification for not wanting to include big chunks of prize money in UTMB title events. She claimed that trail races in Europe that offered big prize money would just have these "agents" from Europe recruit big talents from Africa to come over and race and then end up taking the majority of the prize purses themselves for "fees" with regards to getting the athletes to the race and other services. I'm not sure how true/common this practice was (I imagine it happened but probably less prevalent than she makes it seem) but I do find it an interesting justification.
Really enjoyed this and your Coffee Club pod. I am a fairly new track fan, but a long-time trail runner. If you haven't heard of them, you should check out the Boulder Boys (podcast), they are some of the best trail runners in North America and at least two of the guys (Seth Ruhling & Matt Daniels) are huge track fans. They seem like top guys too.
Interesting thoughts and thanks for sharing them! As a NAU graduate who was internally "not good enough" to even attempt a walk-on and intentionally went for 100 milers back in 2009 and have been trail running since--There has been a lot of change in the sport. The influx of post-collegiate and semi-professional road/ track runners crossing over has been going on for about the last ten years. I'd ~say we are nearing a sort of level'ing out though. It's gotten harder and harder the past two or three years to just appear on the trail scene and completely dominate. Many sub 4min/mile track athletes have come into the sport and do well--but not all of the time and certainly not guaranteed. The great GI stress, terrain, heat etc...take everyone out equally and disproportionately the "new" road/ trail convert I would say. But that is also changing rapidly with the influx of fueling, hydration info & tech available. Good luck at future trail races!
I like to think trail runners have a very similar mindset to newcomers as I have with new steeplers— it’s hard as hell and you won’t pick it up right away. I can’t even begin to imagine running ultras right now, the amount of things that need to be learned through experience is so high compared to track or road racing. There’s no way anyone, no matter how talented, can waltz in and expect to nail it right away. I love how the elements in trail racing can even playing fields, and it’s not always the guy who is the most fit that wins. I’m sure it’s been interesting to follow along for so long and see the shifts. Thanks for contributing!
You are pretty much spot on with your assessment of trail running. As someone in the scene here in SF its crazy how many products there are for trail runners, and how much people are influenced by what the pros wear or eat in races. We regularly talk about the shoes that the podium finishers wore to win the big 50ks and 100ks. I didn't even know what TERREX was as a brand, and then boom the pros started winning races in them and now are always sold out at SFRC. The one other factor in this whole trail running industry boom that I would add has been The Feed, which makes it way easier to buy that niche brand gel or nutrition product.
Anyway, while I would love to see you jump in some trail races, I am pulling for you to make it to LA 28 so I hope you aren't ready to make the full conversion just yet! You are the tip of the spear in steeple, sponsors or not!
The feed has changed the game for brand and sponsorship opportunity as well, I’d be interested to dive into that one day. Always appreciate the support Quinn!
We will welcome you with open arms if you decide to switch to trails. We need more people like you with not only speed but a good understanding of the marketing side of the sport!
I would love to see you take part in a trail race! You could tear up a sub ultra. You mentioned Allie O on the Pod she’s a great example of a pro track/trail runner. She’s done so well not to pigeon hole herself and tackle whichever terrain interests her. I’d also check out Hans Troyer who is making a name for himself on the trails (Augusta Alum) using YouTube to grow his platform.
I wouldn’t write off going to YouTube. Allie has only just got herself a professional camera mostly using an IPhone and friends to capture training vids. You’d have so many people wanting to follow your story post Tinman.
Great post I was stoked that you were mentioning trail running would be great to see you go for it one day on the trails.
Thanks for the support Jordan! Runners like Allie O and Grayson Murphy are good examples. It helps that they grew up in big time trail accessible communities in Alaska and Utah. I remember reading about Allie as a prep being one of the best mountain runners despite only being in high school— been fun to follow along ever since. Grayson was an old teammate at SCU; I joke with her that Huddart Park helped her realize how good she would be on the trails. YouTube could be in the cards for me though, definitely not dismissing it, but just need some resources to make it happen!
Yes 🙌 I still remember the day I made the shift to trail running. I was 40 at the time. That was five years ago. It was a discovery of joy and serenity. Don’t get me wrong, I still continued to love MTB, cyclocross, gravel, hiking, many things. But inside, that day, I began the slow steady approach to becoming a “trail monster” (albeit at my reasonable amateur pace). And you brought it home with so many marketing lenses that I had no idea about. TY
Joey Bags,
I second what Stu says about checking out Boulder Boys show and also being a more recent track fan. Boulder Boys is largely modeled after/inspired by Coffee Club and inspired me to start listening to Coffee club a few months ago.
I'm curious if you feel that the switch to NIL deals in collegiate track/XC will squeeze out more Adam Peterman/Anna Gibson types towards trail running right out of college with more and more foreign athletes coming in to take NIL spots? It seems it is now much more lucrative to run collegiately instead of coming up through the ranks in whatever their home countries are? I haven't been a college track/xc fan long enough to tell if this is a new thing because of NIL but from my new fan perspective it seems like there are a lot more east africans competing in the NCAA champs than there used to be.
It goes without saying that me and many others would love to see you test your chops at an out of season trail race or even a VK like Broken Arrow (end of June which I think is during your season but one of the most competitive in the US) that would be low impact and not affect your steeple goals too much. I'm not sure if you know this, but a lot of Trail running GOATs come from collegiate steeplechase (max king and Jim walmsley come to mind but I'm sure there's more) so there seems to be some strange connection between the two skillsets.
Keep up the great writing (it's a joy to see you in the email inbox each week) and best of luck at Boston!
Thanks for the support! The East African recruiting to the NCAA has seen a big uptick recently due to agencies bridging the gap. My Santa Clara coach has told me stories of being contacted by these agencies where the coach will pay for access to lists of East African preps to recruit— categorized from “NCAA champs” to “conference scorers.” Pretty insane, but I’m not sure how much national NIL (talking about big Nike type brand NIL) is available. Endowments at schools definitely is a big factor in NIL when it comes to recruiting now. Regardless, monetizing talent is a big carrot to dangle in front of any recruit— but with roster limits, there will be more (let’s call it) 2nd or 3rd tier high school talent that will adapt and go to D2-D3 schools, or may just try their chops at triathlon, marathons, or trail racing, sports that it seems in the past have been a later in the career type of move. Could make these disciplines even more competitive as younger talent gains experience earlier in their careers. Lots to think about!
Commoditizing athletes-oh my what a business idea! I guess that makes sense with your point about NIL deals. Despite the East Africans being some of the best runners in college, it seems like the huge NIL deals and sponsorships are still going to the domestic stars who companies seem to think will be more marketable/relatable/likable/ etc. With lack of access to big NIL deals and sponsorships though, I wonder what East African runners' primary motivation is for coming over to the US that would be advantageous compared to training in their home countries (is it living in the US, the support D1 athletes get, the exposure and chance for contracts, etc).
Your point about the agencies brokering "on behalf" of their athletes makes me think a little bit about the founder of UTMB's (Catherine Poletti) justification for not wanting to include big chunks of prize money in UTMB title events. She claimed that trail races in Europe that offered big prize money would just have these "agents" from Europe recruit big talents from Africa to come over and race and then end up taking the majority of the prize purses themselves for "fees" with regards to getting the athletes to the race and other services. I'm not sure how true/common this practice was (I imagine it happened but probably less prevalent than she makes it seem) but I do find it an interesting justification.
Really enjoyed this and your Coffee Club pod. I am a fairly new track fan, but a long-time trail runner. If you haven't heard of them, you should check out the Boulder Boys (podcast), they are some of the best trail runners in North America and at least two of the guys (Seth Ruhling & Matt Daniels) are huge track fans. They seem like top guys too.
Thanks for following along Stu! I’ll check out the Boulder Boys. A couple of my Santa Clara teammates have met and talked highly of Matt Daniels.
Interesting thoughts and thanks for sharing them! As a NAU graduate who was internally "not good enough" to even attempt a walk-on and intentionally went for 100 milers back in 2009 and have been trail running since--There has been a lot of change in the sport. The influx of post-collegiate and semi-professional road/ track runners crossing over has been going on for about the last ten years. I'd ~say we are nearing a sort of level'ing out though. It's gotten harder and harder the past two or three years to just appear on the trail scene and completely dominate. Many sub 4min/mile track athletes have come into the sport and do well--but not all of the time and certainly not guaranteed. The great GI stress, terrain, heat etc...take everyone out equally and disproportionately the "new" road/ trail convert I would say. But that is also changing rapidly with the influx of fueling, hydration info & tech available. Good luck at future trail races!
I like to think trail runners have a very similar mindset to newcomers as I have with new steeplers— it’s hard as hell and you won’t pick it up right away. I can’t even begin to imagine running ultras right now, the amount of things that need to be learned through experience is so high compared to track or road racing. There’s no way anyone, no matter how talented, can waltz in and expect to nail it right away. I love how the elements in trail racing can even playing fields, and it’s not always the guy who is the most fit that wins. I’m sure it’s been interesting to follow along for so long and see the shifts. Thanks for contributing!
You are pretty much spot on with your assessment of trail running. As someone in the scene here in SF its crazy how many products there are for trail runners, and how much people are influenced by what the pros wear or eat in races. We regularly talk about the shoes that the podium finishers wore to win the big 50ks and 100ks. I didn't even know what TERREX was as a brand, and then boom the pros started winning races in them and now are always sold out at SFRC. The one other factor in this whole trail running industry boom that I would add has been The Feed, which makes it way easier to buy that niche brand gel or nutrition product.
Anyway, while I would love to see you jump in some trail races, I am pulling for you to make it to LA 28 so I hope you aren't ready to make the full conversion just yet! You are the tip of the spear in steeple, sponsors or not!
The feed has changed the game for brand and sponsorship opportunity as well, I’d be interested to dive into that one day. Always appreciate the support Quinn!
We will welcome you with open arms if you decide to switch to trails. We need more people like you with not only speed but a good understanding of the marketing side of the sport!
Appreciate the kind welcome Reid!
I would love to see you take part in a trail race! You could tear up a sub ultra. You mentioned Allie O on the Pod she’s a great example of a pro track/trail runner. She’s done so well not to pigeon hole herself and tackle whichever terrain interests her. I’d also check out Hans Troyer who is making a name for himself on the trails (Augusta Alum) using YouTube to grow his platform.
I wouldn’t write off going to YouTube. Allie has only just got herself a professional camera mostly using an IPhone and friends to capture training vids. You’d have so many people wanting to follow your story post Tinman.
Great post I was stoked that you were mentioning trail running would be great to see you go for it one day on the trails.
Thanks for the support Jordan! Runners like Allie O and Grayson Murphy are good examples. It helps that they grew up in big time trail accessible communities in Alaska and Utah. I remember reading about Allie as a prep being one of the best mountain runners despite only being in high school— been fun to follow along ever since. Grayson was an old teammate at SCU; I joke with her that Huddart Park helped her realize how good she would be on the trails. YouTube could be in the cards for me though, definitely not dismissing it, but just need some resources to make it happen!
Yes 🙌 I still remember the day I made the shift to trail running. I was 40 at the time. That was five years ago. It was a discovery of joy and serenity. Don’t get me wrong, I still continued to love MTB, cyclocross, gravel, hiking, many things. But inside, that day, I began the slow steady approach to becoming a “trail monster” (albeit at my reasonable amateur pace). And you brought it home with so many marketing lenses that I had no idea about. TY